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	<title>Comments on: what ever happened to&#8230;</title>
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	<description>the unruly darlings of public sociology</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 17:55:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: shakha</title>
		<link>http://scatter.wordpress.com/2008/01/29/what-ever-happened-to/#comment-1879</link>
		<dc:creator>shakha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 02:06:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scatter.wordpress.com/?p=247#comment-1879</guid>
		<description>Actually, it was for a follow-up project ("Three Departments" was written while I was still in high school, I believe!). The new project looked at the relationship between psychology and sociology, and argued that sociology moved away from a conceptualization of "character" - by which agents were understood as whole coherent entities, to "personality" - where agents were made up of parts that could be used to understand them. Quite an interesting idea of Camic's. The shift away from a holistic understanding of people to a constituitive one happened around 1915, as I recall. And the implications for the direction of the discipline are, to my mind, enormously important. If we think of people made up of "parts" of personality (as opposed to holistic entities) then variable based analyses actually make sense (people are made up of different variable based parts). I'm not sure if Chas ever published the paper. He gave a version of it at that Bourdieu and history conference at Yale back in 2004. My job on the project was data gathering - reading articles from 1895-1940 and coding the usages of character and personality. I was not intellectually involved in it. Or put more simply, it paid my bills one summer, and I was grateful for that!

I'll email him about the initial question.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, it was for a follow-up project (&#8221;Three Departments&#8221; was written while I was still in high school, I believe!). The new project looked at the relationship between psychology and sociology, and argued that sociology moved away from a conceptualization of &#8220;character&#8221; - by which agents were understood as whole coherent entities, to &#8220;personality&#8221; - where agents were made up of parts that could be used to understand them. Quite an interesting idea of Camic&#8217;s. The shift away from a holistic understanding of people to a constituitive one happened around 1915, as I recall. And the implications for the direction of the discipline are, to my mind, enormously important. If we think of people made up of &#8220;parts&#8221; of personality (as opposed to holistic entities) then variable based analyses actually make sense (people are made up of different variable based parts). I&#8217;m not sure if Chas ever published the paper. He gave a version of it at that Bourdieu and history conference at Yale back in 2004. My job on the project was data gathering - reading articles from 1895-1940 and coding the usages of character and personality. I was not intellectually involved in it. Or put more simply, it paid my bills one summer, and I was grateful for that!</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll email him about the initial question.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://scatter.wordpress.com/2008/01/29/what-ever-happened-to/#comment-1878</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 01:45:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scatter.wordpress.com/?p=247#comment-1878</guid>
		<description>shakha: I assume this means you did some of the research behind Camic's article, "Three Departments in Search of a Discipline"? Actually, I'd be very interested in seeing his take on Dan's initial question. Maybe you should see if Chas would respond...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>shakha: I assume this means you did some of the research behind Camic&#8217;s article, &#8220;Three Departments in Search of a Discipline&#8221;? Actually, I&#8217;d be very interested in seeing his take on Dan&#8217;s initial question. Maybe you should see if Chas would respond&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: shakha</title>
		<link>http://scatter.wordpress.com/2008/01/29/what-ever-happened-to/#comment-1874</link>
		<dc:creator>shakha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 00:43:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scatter.wordpress.com/?p=247#comment-1874</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the plug, Jonathan! Over the past couple days I realized that more people may have read my work here on this blog than may EVER read an article I write (our readership has skyrocketed, at least for the last couple days, because of a plug from marginal revolution). Which is interesting to contemplate. I learned more about the history of American Sociology in writing that essay and reading the others in the volume than I ever learned in grad school. That, and when I briefly had a job for Chas Camic reading articles written from 1895-1940 in AJS. 

At that time I also read a couple ASR pieces, including one by the 1939 ASA president Sutherland on &lt;a href="http://www.asanet.org/galleries/default-file/PresidentialAddress1939.pdf" rel="nofollow"&gt;white collar crime&lt;/a&gt;. I really liked that paper and wonder if anyone ever picked up on it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the plug, Jonathan! Over the past couple days I realized that more people may have read my work here on this blog than may EVER read an article I write (our readership has skyrocketed, at least for the last couple days, because of a plug from marginal revolution). Which is interesting to contemplate. I learned more about the history of American Sociology in writing that essay and reading the others in the volume than I ever learned in grad school. That, and when I briefly had a job for Chas Camic reading articles written from 1895-1940 in AJS. </p>
<p>At that time I also read a couple ASR pieces, including one by the 1939 ASA president Sutherland on <a href="http://www.asanet.org/galleries/default-file/PresidentialAddress1939.pdf" rel="nofollow">white collar crime</a>. I really liked that paper and wonder if anyone ever picked up on it.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://scatter.wordpress.com/2008/01/29/what-ever-happened-to/#comment-1873</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 23:49:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scatter.wordpress.com/?p=247#comment-1873</guid>
		<description>Kieran Healy's &lt;a href="http://www.kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2008/01/30/theory-is-dead-long-live-theory/" rel="nofollow"&gt;response&lt;/a&gt; to Dan Hirschman's question above is, predictably, a smart one (as is the longer article from which it draws). Among the various sources Kieran's article mentions is a &lt;a href="http://www.csun.edu/~egodard/asatheory/january2004.pdf" rel="nofollow"&gt;short piece&lt;/a&gt; by Michèle Lamont, written a few years back for &lt;i&gt;Perspectives&lt;/i&gt;, the newsletter of the ASA theory section. Michèle's analysis was admittedly "impressionistic," but nonetheless interesting---and so was the discussion that followed in &lt;a href="http://www.asatheory.org/" rel="nofollow"&gt;subsequent issues&lt;/a&gt; of &lt;i&gt;Perspectives&lt;/i&gt;. And her reflections run somewhat against the grain of one of the claims Shamus seems to make, namely that theorists (or those who do "theory") "basically read and talk about theory" and are engaged in "intellectual history."

Well, I suppose it all depends on the meaning of the word "basically." If this means "mainly" or "only," then I'm not so sure. Lamont's analysis suggests that those who teach "theory"---and let's assume, contrary to the old saw, that those who teach theory not infrequently find themselves doing it too, and perhaps even doing it well---"do not define themselves first and foremost as theorists." That is, they self-define as "'cultural sociologists' or something like that," though whether this is "masquerade" is perhaps a separate question.

But---and here I think Shamus and I agree---we should be careful not to conflate being and doing. As he puts it: "you can certainly do theory without being one who does 'theory'." That is---if I'm getting this right---you can do theory without defining yourself primarily as a theorist---though yes, this does mean that you will have to masquerade as (indeed, you will have to be) something and someone else. But that is probably all to the good, since even the most die-hard theorists ought to be urged to get out of their armchairs. Bourdieu once called it "fieldwork in philosophy."

And what about "intellectual history"? Sociology as a discipline would probably be at least somewhat better off if more sociologists were willing to pay it some good attention. We &lt;i&gt;ought&lt;/i&gt; to hesitate before forgetting our founders (and their followers), if only because they helped forge the field that now forges us (and because even those who did not significantly shape the field might, with a bit of reading and reflection, still manage to significantly shape us).

But again, this could, and perhaps should, be figured not as a matter of exclusive intellectual identity, but rather as one form of intellectual activity among many. Kieran Healy is not primarily an "intellectual historian," but his article does some good work that looks a lot like intellectual history. Similarly, Shamus himself has done a bit of intellectual history, it seems to me, for an excellent chapter in this &lt;a href="http://www.press.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/hfs.cgi/00/204536.ctl" rel="nofollow"&gt;big fat book&lt;/a&gt;. This isn't the only thing that theorists (or those who "do theory") might do. Yet it is, I think, worth doing.

And will those who do it find jobs in departments of sociology? Good question. But it is probably safe to say that the American sociologist does not usually live by theory alone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kieran Healy&#8217;s <a href="http://www.kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2008/01/30/theory-is-dead-long-live-theory/" rel="nofollow">response</a> to Dan Hirschman&#8217;s question above is, predictably, a smart one (as is the longer article from which it draws). Among the various sources Kieran&#8217;s article mentions is a <a href="http://www.csun.edu/~egodard/asatheory/january2004.pdf" rel="nofollow">short piece</a> by Michèle Lamont, written a few years back for <i>Perspectives</i>, the newsletter of the ASA theory section. Michèle&#8217;s analysis was admittedly &#8220;impressionistic,&#8221; but nonetheless interesting&#8212;and so was the discussion that followed in <a href="http://www.asatheory.org/" rel="nofollow">subsequent issues</a> of <i>Perspectives</i>. And her reflections run somewhat against the grain of one of the claims Shamus seems to make, namely that theorists (or those who do &#8220;theory&#8221;) &#8220;basically read and talk about theory&#8221; and are engaged in &#8220;intellectual history.&#8221;</p>
<p>Well, I suppose it all depends on the meaning of the word &#8220;basically.&#8221; If this means &#8220;mainly&#8221; or &#8220;only,&#8221; then I&#8217;m not so sure. Lamont&#8217;s analysis suggests that those who teach &#8220;theory&#8221;&#8212;and let&#8217;s assume, contrary to the old saw, that those who teach theory not infrequently find themselves doing it too, and perhaps even doing it well&#8212;&#8221;do not define themselves first and foremost as theorists.&#8221; That is, they self-define as &#8220;&#8216;cultural sociologists&#8217; or something like that,&#8221; though whether this is &#8220;masquerade&#8221; is perhaps a separate question.</p>
<p>But&#8212;and here I think Shamus and I agree&#8212;we should be careful not to conflate being and doing. As he puts it: &#8220;you can certainly do theory without being one who does &#8216;theory&#8217;.&#8221; That is&#8212;if I&#8217;m getting this right&#8212;you can do theory without defining yourself primarily as a theorist&#8212;though yes, this does mean that you will have to masquerade as (indeed, you will have to be) something and someone else. But that is probably all to the good, since even the most die-hard theorists ought to be urged to get out of their armchairs. Bourdieu once called it &#8220;fieldwork in philosophy.&#8221;</p>
<p>And what about &#8220;intellectual history&#8221;? Sociology as a discipline would probably be at least somewhat better off if more sociologists were willing to pay it some good attention. We <i>ought</i> to hesitate before forgetting our founders (and their followers), if only because they helped forge the field that now forges us (and because even those who did not significantly shape the field might, with a bit of reading and reflection, still manage to significantly shape us).</p>
<p>But again, this could, and perhaps should, be figured not as a matter of exclusive intellectual identity, but rather as one form of intellectual activity among many. Kieran Healy is not primarily an &#8220;intellectual historian,&#8221; but his article does some good work that looks a lot like intellectual history. Similarly, Shamus himself has done a bit of intellectual history, it seems to me, for an excellent chapter in this <a href="http://www.press.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/hfs.cgi/00/204536.ctl" rel="nofollow">big fat book</a>. This isn&#8217;t the only thing that theorists (or those who &#8220;do theory&#8221;) might do. Yet it is, I think, worth doing.</p>
<p>And will those who do it find jobs in departments of sociology? Good question. But it is probably safe to say that the American sociologist does not usually live by theory alone.</p>
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		<title>By: tamsynx</title>
		<link>http://scatter.wordpress.com/2008/01/29/what-ever-happened-to/#comment-1717</link>
		<dc:creator>tamsynx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 02:18:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scatter.wordpress.com/?p=247#comment-1717</guid>
		<description>I'm still in grad school, and one reason I use a pseudonym is because I don't want blogging to affect my job opportunities.  And, like everyone else, of course, if I say something stupid then people won't know it's me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m still in grad school, and one reason I use a pseudonym is because I don&#8217;t want blogging to affect my job opportunities.  And, like everyone else, of course, if I say something stupid then people won&#8217;t know it&#8217;s me.</p>
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		<title>By: peelpel</title>
		<link>http://scatter.wordpress.com/2008/01/29/what-ever-happened-to/#comment-1676</link>
		<dc:creator>peelpel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2008 01:39:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scatter.wordpress.com/?p=247#comment-1676</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the thoughtful posts, all. 
Sounds like it seems to come down to level of risk aversion. And, perhaps, the range of topics one wants to be able to discuss online (see OW's comment in the 'race names 2' thread).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the thoughtful posts, all.<br />
Sounds like it seems to come down to level of risk aversion. And, perhaps, the range of topics one wants to be able to discuss online (see OW&#8217;s comment in the &#8216;race names 2&#8242; thread).</p>
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		<title>By: theory is dead, long live theory &#171; orgtheory.net</title>
		<link>http://scatter.wordpress.com/2008/01/29/what-ever-happened-to/#comment-1652</link>
		<dc:creator>theory is dead, long live theory &#171; orgtheory.net</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2008 03:20:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scatter.wordpress.com/?p=247#comment-1652</guid>
		<description>[...] comments at Scatterplot, Dan Hirschman asks,  A colleague of mine in graduate school interested in social theory claimed [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] comments at Scatterplot, Dan Hirschman asks,  A colleague of mine in graduate school interested in social theory claimed [...]</p>
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		<title>By: newsocprof</title>
		<link>http://scatter.wordpress.com/2008/01/29/what-ever-happened-to/#comment-1650</link>
		<dc:creator>newsocprof</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2008 03:16:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scatter.wordpress.com/?p=247#comment-1650</guid>
		<description>I use a pseudonym for the same reason as olderwoman above... I'm not quite sure how this blogging thing is going to shake out, I'm bound to say something stupid, and my public persona is still very much in progress. Most people who know me well KNOW it's me (without asking) and I definitely watch what I say (esp. re: my new department) but it's still comforting that no one can know for sure. (Speaking of this, olderwoman, I had no idea who you were until you left a comment on my blog. Turns out, we know each other a bit -- if you haven't idenitifed me yet, I'll be sure to out myself next time I see you at ASA.)

Re: theory. I work in a fairly undervalued area of soc, especially when it comes to theory. I got job offers because of the methods I use but people are always pleasantly surprised when I say I'd like to teach theory (in my area, we have a shortage). Again, I second olderwoman when I say that talking about theory as an "area" is weird to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I use a pseudonym for the same reason as olderwoman above&#8230; I&#8217;m not quite sure how this blogging thing is going to shake out, I&#8217;m bound to say something stupid, and my public persona is still very much in progress. Most people who know me well KNOW it&#8217;s me (without asking) and I definitely watch what I say (esp. re: my new department) but it&#8217;s still comforting that no one can know for sure. (Speaking of this, olderwoman, I had no idea who you were until you left a comment on my blog. Turns out, we know each other a bit &#8212; if you haven&#8217;t idenitifed me yet, I&#8217;ll be sure to out myself next time I see you at ASA.)</p>
<p>Re: theory. I work in a fairly undervalued area of soc, especially when it comes to theory. I got job offers because of the methods I use but people are always pleasantly surprised when I say I&#8217;d like to teach theory (in my area, we have a shortage). Again, I second olderwoman when I say that talking about theory as an &#8220;area&#8221; is weird to me.</p>
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		<title>By: jeremy</title>
		<link>http://scatter.wordpress.com/2008/01/29/what-ever-happened-to/#comment-1647</link>
		<dc:creator>jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2008 01:47:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scatter.wordpress.com/?p=247#comment-1647</guid>
		<description>Shamus:  You should coordinate Question Of The Week.  I think it's a good idea but every time Wednesday (which was the day I was going to do it) has come around I haven't had the cognitive wherewithal to launch it.  I think I had a previous post in which I talked about how I'm not very good about posting about things I plan to post, versus ideas that are spur of the moment.

Also, I blog under a pseudonym because it throws the packs of snark-bloggers off my scent, and because the real Jeremy doesn't seem to care.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shamus:  You should coordinate Question Of The Week.  I think it&#8217;s a good idea but every time Wednesday (which was the day I was going to do it) has come around I haven&#8217;t had the cognitive wherewithal to launch it.  I think I had a previous post in which I talked about how I&#8217;m not very good about posting about things I plan to post, versus ideas that are spur of the moment.</p>
<p>Also, I blog under a pseudonym because it throws the packs of snark-bloggers off my scent, and because the real Jeremy doesn&#8217;t seem to care.</p>
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		<title>By: olderwoman</title>
		<link>http://scatter.wordpress.com/2008/01/29/what-ever-happened-to/#comment-1646</link>
		<dc:creator>olderwoman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2008 01:28:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scatter.wordpress.com/?p=247#comment-1646</guid>
		<description>Re theory, we have no shortage of people to teach theory.  It seems like pretty much all qualitative sociologists and half of all quantitative sociologists are interested in teaching &#38; talking about theory.  The idea of "theory" as an area in itself, rather than theory as a tool for understanding some aspect of social reality, is a little puzzling to many of us.

Re pseudonyms, I started that way because I don't want this blog to come up in a google search on my name.  I'm still deciding how I want this persona to relate or not relate to my more public persona.  But I assume that most of the readers of this blog either know who I am or can figure it out, so I don't feel any license to say anything I would not otherwise say.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re theory, we have no shortage of people to teach theory.  It seems like pretty much all qualitative sociologists and half of all quantitative sociologists are interested in teaching &amp; talking about theory.  The idea of &#8220;theory&#8221; as an area in itself, rather than theory as a tool for understanding some aspect of social reality, is a little puzzling to many of us.</p>
<p>Re pseudonyms, I started that way because I don&#8217;t want this blog to come up in a google search on my name.  I&#8217;m still deciding how I want this persona to relate or not relate to my more public persona.  But I assume that most of the readers of this blog either know who I am or can figure it out, so I don&#8217;t feel any license to say anything I would not otherwise say.</p>
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