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	<title>Comments on: every talk is a job talk, especially ones called a job talk</title>
	<atom:link href="http://scatter.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/every-talk-is-a-job-talk-especially-ones-called-a-job-talk/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://scatter.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/every-talk-is-a-job-talk-especially-ones-called-a-job-talk/</link>
	<description>the unruly darlings of public sociology</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 06:37:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: mike3550</title>
		<link>http://scatter.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/every-talk-is-a-job-talk-especially-ones-called-a-job-talk/#comment-1581</link>
		<dc:creator>mike3550</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2008 15:44:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scatter.wordpress.com/?p=237#comment-1581</guid>
		<description>olderwoman: thank you for clarifying.  it is nice to know that our thoughts are considered.  To me the whole hiring decision is a giant mystery so it is helpful to know how things are taken into account.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>olderwoman: thank you for clarifying.  it is nice to know that our thoughts are considered.  To me the whole hiring decision is a giant mystery so it is helpful to know how things are taken into account.</p>
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		<title>By: sara</title>
		<link>http://scatter.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/every-talk-is-a-job-talk-especially-ones-called-a-job-talk/#comment-1575</link>
		<dc:creator>sara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 20:55:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scatter.wordpress.com/?p=237#comment-1575</guid>
		<description>"However, plenty of information is volunteered by the candidate that may well be brought up in discussions."

For example, if you are asked over lunch what it is about [a-large-coastal-metropolitan-area-that-is-not-my-current-hometown] that makes it particularly interesting to you or possibly a good place for you to do your research, and you answer, "have you SEEN the women in this city?  I'd be an idiot not to try to move here while I'm still young!"...well, then, people will bring this up in discussions (and it's the folks who try to connect the comment to your CV who will have the biggest smirks on their faces).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;However, plenty of information is volunteered by the candidate that may well be brought up in discussions.&#8221;</p>
<p>For example, if you are asked over lunch what it is about [a-large-coastal-metropolitan-area-that-is-not-my-current-hometown] that makes it particularly interesting to you or possibly a good place for you to do your research, and you answer, &#8220;have you SEEN the women in this city?  I&#8217;d be an idiot not to try to move here while I&#8217;m still young!&#8221;&#8230;well, then, people will bring this up in discussions (and it&#8217;s the folks who try to connect the comment to your CV who will have the biggest smirks on their faces).</p>
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		<title>By: abarian</title>
		<link>http://scatter.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/every-talk-is-a-job-talk-especially-ones-called-a-job-talk/#comment-1573</link>
		<dc:creator>abarian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 20:08:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scatter.wordpress.com/?p=237#comment-1573</guid>
		<description>This conversation is very interesting to me. There are people who really, truly want a job at X University, but can't wait to get out of there - and worse yet, are all smug and watch-looking and etc? It strikes me as odd that it would have to be mentioned at all as a job market 'don't.'</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This conversation is very interesting to me. There are people who really, truly want a job at X University, but can&#8217;t wait to get out of there - and worse yet, are all smug and watch-looking and etc? It strikes me as odd that it would have to be mentioned at all as a job market &#8216;don&#8217;t.&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: olderwoman</title>
		<link>http://scatter.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/every-talk-is-a-job-talk-especially-ones-called-a-job-talk/#comment-1568</link>
		<dc:creator>olderwoman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:26:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scatter.wordpress.com/?p=237#comment-1568</guid>
		<description>mike: I meant my comment more to potential job candidates, not to blow off the grad students.  Some people have lost jobs because of how they treated the grad students, and some people have gotten jobs (when the faculty were uncertain or divided) because of positive reports from the grad students.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mike: I meant my comment more to potential job candidates, not to blow off the grad students.  Some people have lost jobs because of how they treated the grad students, and some people have gotten jobs (when the faculty were uncertain or divided) because of positive reports from the grad students.</p>
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		<title>By: mom</title>
		<link>http://scatter.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/every-talk-is-a-job-talk-especially-ones-called-a-job-talk/#comment-1567</link>
		<dc:creator>mom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:23:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scatter.wordpress.com/?p=237#comment-1567</guid>
		<description>For any new job seekers, I wanted to add that if you are serious about a job, you should not only show interest in the department but in each of the faculty you meet.  All those office visits are opportunities to connect, and at the end of the day each of these people will vote one (equal) vote.

Political psychologists say that when voting, we decide who we like and then find justifications for why they are a better candidate (even if we don't realize we are doing this). I think this happens in academic hiring too.  Chances are in a pool of 3 or 4 interviewees there will be one who is out of the question and then a couple who are equally promising, if in different ways.  Connecting with indididuals can help you stand out and showing interest in their work, teaching, activism, whatever... can do that.

I see this more clearly from the other side of the desk (having now been through 5 searches) than I did as a candidate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For any new job seekers, I wanted to add that if you are serious about a job, you should not only show interest in the department but in each of the faculty you meet.  All those office visits are opportunities to connect, and at the end of the day each of these people will vote one (equal) vote.</p>
<p>Political psychologists say that when voting, we decide who we like and then find justifications for why they are a better candidate (even if we don&#8217;t realize we are doing this). I think this happens in academic hiring too.  Chances are in a pool of 3 or 4 interviewees there will be one who is out of the question and then a couple who are equally promising, if in different ways.  Connecting with indididuals can help you stand out and showing interest in their work, teaching, activism, whatever&#8230; can do that.</p>
<p>I see this more clearly from the other side of the desk (having now been through 5 searches) than I did as a candidate.</p>
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		<title>By: mike3550</title>
		<link>http://scatter.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/every-talk-is-a-job-talk-especially-ones-called-a-job-talk/#comment-1566</link>
		<dc:creator>mike3550</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:20:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scatter.wordpress.com/?p=237#comment-1566</guid>
		<description>I didn't mean to imply that our comments are not taken seriously or that they are not valued.  I just meant that we actually have no power in the actual decision because we are not in the room when the final decision is made.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t mean to imply that our comments are not taken seriously or that they are not valued.  I just meant that we actually have no power in the actual decision because we are not in the room when the final decision is made.</p>
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		<title>By: olderwoman</title>
		<link>http://scatter.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/every-talk-is-a-job-talk-especially-ones-called-a-job-talk/#comment-1565</link>
		<dc:creator>olderwoman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:48:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scatter.wordpress.com/?p=237#comment-1565</guid>
		<description>For the record, we take the feedback from the grad students about the candidate very seriously.  We don't always go with what the students want, of course, but their opinions are usually very thoughtful and well-grounded.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the record, we take the feedback from the grad students about the candidate very seriously.  We don&#8217;t always go with what the students want, of course, but their opinions are usually very thoughtful and well-grounded.</p>
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		<title>By: mike3550</title>
		<link>http://scatter.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/every-talk-is-a-job-talk-especially-ones-called-a-job-talk/#comment-1564</link>
		<dc:creator>mike3550</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:48:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scatter.wordpress.com/?p=237#comment-1564</guid>
		<description>Eszter, thank you!  I am really lucky to have great mentors, but I honestly think that being part of &lt;a href="http://www.google.com/cse?cx=001863597868484511464%3Apjgzsjcltng&#38;q=&#38;sa=Search+Socioblogopia" rel="nofollow"&gt;Socioblogpia&lt;/a&gt; (GIANT h/t to &lt;a href="http://wickedanomie.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow"&gt;anomie&lt;/a&gt; for that) has also helped a whole lot.  Between &lt;a href="http://scatter.wordpress.com/2007/12/19/starting-off/" rel="nofollow"&gt;dispelling myths&lt;/a&gt;, to &lt;a href="http://orgtheory.wordpress.com/grad-skool-rulz/" rel="nofollow"&gt;knowing the rulz&lt;/a&gt;, and &lt;a href="http://scatter.wordpress.com/2008/01/03/first-day-of-grad-class/" rel="nofollow"&gt;learning skills&lt;/a&gt; I probably should already have, it has been a great asset being part of the community.  I'm looking forward to meeting everyone in person at ASA. 

By the way, if there is still interest in doing the weekly grad-school myth-dispelling sessions on &lt;a href="http://scatter.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow"&gt;scatterplot&lt;/a&gt;, how about calling it "Line of Best Fit."  Kind of cheezy, but I think that it works.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eszter, thank you!  I am really lucky to have great mentors, but I honestly think that being part of <a href="http://www.google.com/cse?cx=001863597868484511464%3Apjgzsjcltng&amp;q=&amp;sa=Search+Socioblogopia" rel="nofollow">Socioblogpia</a> (GIANT h/t to <a href="http://wickedanomie.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">anomie</a> for that) has also helped a whole lot.  Between <a href="http://scatter.wordpress.com/2007/12/19/starting-off/" rel="nofollow">dispelling myths</a>, to <a href="http://orgtheory.wordpress.com/grad-skool-rulz/" rel="nofollow">knowing the rulz</a>, and <a href="http://scatter.wordpress.com/2008/01/03/first-day-of-grad-class/" rel="nofollow">learning skills</a> I probably should already have, it has been a great asset being part of the community.  I&#8217;m looking forward to meeting everyone in person at ASA. </p>
<p>By the way, if there is still interest in doing the weekly grad-school myth-dispelling sessions on <a href="http://scatter.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow">scatterplot</a>, how about calling it &#8220;Line of Best Fit.&#8221;  Kind of cheezy, but I think that it works.</p>
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		<title>By: eszter</title>
		<link>http://scatter.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/every-talk-is-a-job-talk-especially-ones-called-a-job-talk/#comment-1559</link>
		<dc:creator>eszter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 15:44:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scatter.wordpress.com/?p=237#comment-1559</guid>
		<description>Perhaps if a candidate is top notch these things will matter less, but overall, I would agree that these are relevant issues.

Mike, you seem to be doing a great job with taking advantage of professionalization opportunities, good for you!

You bring up several very good points, relevant from various perspectives.

1. It is not a good message when grad students don't show up to meetings with visitors.  If this is with a job candidate, especially one who tends to work with students, the person will want to know about them. While it is hard to argue that any one factor will make or break a deal, seeing  apathetic grad students can be a considerable turn-off.

2. Any savvy visitor uses the opportunity to meet with grad students as an opportunity to learn about the up-and-coming young scholars in the field. 

3. In addition to the benefit coming from #2 to grad students, as you note, grad students can learn quite a bit from such meetings. If it's not a savvy visitor (as per the type mentioned in the above post) then grad students can learn about what not to do!

Note also that in addition to any specific job that may be on the table, there will be other future interactions with colleagues (and the students will be colleagues in not too long as well) that also suggest taking advantage of opportunities to get to know people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps if a candidate is top notch these things will matter less, but overall, I would agree that these are relevant issues.</p>
<p>Mike, you seem to be doing a great job with taking advantage of professionalization opportunities, good for you!</p>
<p>You bring up several very good points, relevant from various perspectives.</p>
<p>1. It is not a good message when grad students don&#8217;t show up to meetings with visitors.  If this is with a job candidate, especially one who tends to work with students, the person will want to know about them. While it is hard to argue that any one factor will make or break a deal, seeing  apathetic grad students can be a considerable turn-off.</p>
<p>2. Any savvy visitor uses the opportunity to meet with grad students as an opportunity to learn about the up-and-coming young scholars in the field. </p>
<p>3. In addition to the benefit coming from #2 to grad students, as you note, grad students can learn quite a bit from such meetings. If it&#8217;s not a savvy visitor (as per the type mentioned in the above post) then grad students can learn about what not to do!</p>
<p>Note also that in addition to any specific job that may be on the table, there will be other future interactions with colleagues (and the students will be colleagues in not too long as well) that also suggest taking advantage of opportunities to get to know people.</p>
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		<title>By: mike3550</title>
		<link>http://scatter.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/every-talk-is-a-job-talk-especially-ones-called-a-job-talk/#comment-1558</link>
		<dc:creator>mike3550</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 15:19:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scatter.wordpress.com/?p=237#comment-1558</guid>
		<description>From a grad student's perspective, I also find having a presenter spend time with us invaluable.  Although a) we have no power in any hiring decisions and b) we are most likely, or at least hopefully, going to be leaving the institution in a couple of years, the benefits to the potential presenter are slim for that talk at that institution.  On the other hand, if the presenter decides to stay at their current institution (or, the talk is just that in particular cases), it means that you can meet potential candidates early which will help from your own institution.

For my own part, I have found meeting with presenters, speakers and job candidates to be one of the best things that I have done over my career in grad school.  I even went to one my first year to a grad student meeting with senior scholar who I knew very little about his work and his work was not in any way related to mine.  Over the course of the conversation, he helped me think about how network analysis (that was his specialty) could actually be related to what I was interested in studying.  Other times, I have taken the opportunity to find out how other departments work, ask productive scholars how they are so productive (yes, I asked it exactly like that) and advice for the job market for myself.  While I fully trust the faculty in my department, we all know that departments have their own quirks and idiosyncrasies, so it is good to get an outside perspective. 

What is surprising is that very few grad students go to these "meet-and-greet" sessions.  I don't know if this is unique to my department or whether students are, by default, scheduled in the least convenient time slot (because the more convenient ones are taken by the one-on-one meetings with faculty).  In line with Colonel Density's comments, I wonder what kind of message that sends to a presenter (whether officially giving a job talk or not) about a department.  And, like the case of the presenters, it really costs nothing to get huge potential benefits for grad students.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From a grad student&#8217;s perspective, I also find having a presenter spend time with us invaluable.  Although a) we have no power in any hiring decisions and b) we are most likely, or at least hopefully, going to be leaving the institution in a couple of years, the benefits to the potential presenter are slim for that talk at that institution.  On the other hand, if the presenter decides to stay at their current institution (or, the talk is just that in particular cases), it means that you can meet potential candidates early which will help from your own institution.</p>
<p>For my own part, I have found meeting with presenters, speakers and job candidates to be one of the best things that I have done over my career in grad school.  I even went to one my first year to a grad student meeting with senior scholar who I knew very little about his work and his work was not in any way related to mine.  Over the course of the conversation, he helped me think about how network analysis (that was his specialty) could actually be related to what I was interested in studying.  Other times, I have taken the opportunity to find out how other departments work, ask productive scholars how they are so productive (yes, I asked it exactly like that) and advice for the job market for myself.  While I fully trust the faculty in my department, we all know that departments have their own quirks and idiosyncrasies, so it is good to get an outside perspective. </p>
<p>What is surprising is that very few grad students go to these &#8220;meet-and-greet&#8221; sessions.  I don&#8217;t know if this is unique to my department or whether students are, by default, scheduled in the least convenient time slot (because the more convenient ones are taken by the one-on-one meetings with faculty).  In line with Colonel Density&#8217;s comments, I wonder what kind of message that sends to a presenter (whether officially giving a job talk or not) about a department.  And, like the case of the presenters, it really costs nothing to get huge potential benefits for grad students.</p>
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