Comments on: ’tis the season

By: jeremy

jeremy — Thu, 20 Dec 2007 04:45:47 +0000

OW/BM: Yeah, I can see the points here and hope I didn’t sound pissy before (although, believe me, I was pissy, but because of an entirely unrelated thing going on that may be subject of its own post).

By: Kieran

Kieran — Thu, 20 Dec 2007 04:40:36 +0000

I appreciate the professional piety here, … What I object to is the idea “this is what you are being paid for” just because it seems so plainly untrue

I don’t see the disagreement here. On the one hand, it’s just part of the job description to do this sort of work (being the 3rd person or whatever). So in that sense you’re being paid for it. On the other hand, no-one’s going to say this should be the bulk of your job, or misunderstand what you meant if, when faced with the umpteenth request to be person #3 on some random committee, you thought “I’m not getting paid to do this.”

By: blue monster

blue monster — Thu, 20 Dec 2007 04:23:13 +0000

Well, I don’t think it is part of your job to be on committees at universities other than your own. You’re not a sucker for doing them, any more than you are for doing any kind of charitable activity. But I do think it is part of your job to be on committees at your own university. It’s part of teaching in a graduate program. If it weren’t part of the job, then we could all say no to everyone and it wouldn’t be a problem. Clearly, that is not the case.

It also does not mean you have to say yes to everyone either. We also have an obligation to teach courses, but we don’t have to teach everything we’re asked just because teaching is something we get paid for. But we do have an obligation to do some reasonable amount of teaching as a function of being employed by the university as part of the T&R faculty. The definition of “reasonable” is a bit more elastic in the case of committees, but the obligation does in fact come with the job in graduate departments.

My problem with your logic, Jeremy, is that the flip side of it allows people to say “that’s not part of my job” and off-load the work on everyone else. I’m a lot more worried about that than someone thinking they cannot say no to anyone.

By: olderwoman

olderwoman — Thu, 20 Dec 2007 04:08:28 +0000

Fair enough, as there are limits and helpful people such as yourself get asked to do a lot more than unhelpful people. There is one in particular for which you get lots of mensch points. The fun of being on student committees is working with the students, and forming ongoing relations with them. The unfun part, as you know, is when the project isn’t that good and needs a lot of help. Or if you are just doing too many of them.

I always felt that when I did not have many advisees, I owed it to the system to do “charity” advising (by which I mean, advising on projects I have no interest in) for students who had no good person to work with. But when I am well above average in the number of advisees & non-advisee committees that I’m doing serious work on, I feel justified in being more selective about what I say yes to.

I think you were in a structural situation where you got asked to do a lot of “charity” committee work because you are so good at helping people figure out their projects, so I can see why you got burned out. I had other kinds of folks in mind (and I suspect Bluemonster did, too), the people who will only work with students whose work feeds into their own or who repeatedly turn down any share of committee work.

By: jeremy

jeremy — Thu, 20 Dec 2007 03:24:28 +0000

I appreciate the professional piety here, and I also myself say “it’s my job” when students thank me for various things. What I object to is the idea “this is what you are being paid for” just because it seems so plainly untrue. I might be in a weird position for this because I’ve been serving on student committees at a certain university that hasn’t paid me anything for 2 1/2 years, and I would just as soon not feel like a sucker. I just did a proposal defense the other day for somebody at a university that has never employed me, for which I have no expectation ever of compensation nor do I especially care, as that’s not what it’s about. There’s partly a sense of duty behind it, but it’s not a because-I’m-getting-paid kind of duty.

The flip side of it is that “this is what you are being paid for” implies an obligation to agree to be any student’s committees if they ask, and I do not believe that I have signed on to that. (Or, if I have, I want some better idea of how that kind of job obligation works.)

By: olderwoman

olderwoman — Thu, 20 Dec 2007 02:44:17 +0000

PS I remember that back in the dark ages of the 1980s, we had a problem because students (especially women) would ask the young women faculty to help them with their dissertations but would put the high status men on their committees for reference letter name recognition. So we all agreed that we would insist that we be named as a committee member if we were giving significant help on the project. But that is not inconsistent with the point that being on a committee is part of the job. Just that if you are doing the job, you should at least have your name listed.

By: olderwoman

olderwoman — Thu, 20 Dec 2007 02:37:10 +0000

Blue monster is right about the job description. Not sure anybody actually disagreed. But just in case people are really clueless, yes your job includes stuff that benefits students and the institution, not just stuff that benefits you personally. That is what you are being paid for.

By: blue monster

blue monster — Thu, 20 Dec 2007 02:28:14 +0000

The thing is, just about everything in the job description is something you only get indirect credit for. Last time I checked, after you get an article in ASR they ask YOU to pay THEM! I’m pushing it too far here, but there are all kind of obligations in the job that range a great deal in terms of how much credit you get and how much you “get paid” for doing them. But, you are in fact getting paid to do them. If you are in a department with graduate students, part of your obligation as a faculty member is to serve on thesis, dissertation, and orals committees. Some people can squirm out of it some or even most of the time, but we all know that those people are not fulfilling their obligations and in fact aren’t doing their jobs properly. If you don’t do you fair share of these, you are getting paid to do something you aren’t doing. Therefore, those who are doing it are getting paid to do it.

By: Eszter

Eszter — Wed, 19 Dec 2007 22:36:56 +0000

JLena - Awesome idea! I will definitely implement something of this sort.

By: colonel density

colonel density — Wed, 19 Dec 2007 21:11:30 +0000

Interesting discussion. It looks like presents are not an issue per se. I guess if they’re small it’s okay. I certainly do appreciate cards that thank me after a dissertation defense, but I wouldn’t call that a gift per se so that’s never posed a problem.